Date: Thu, 09 May 1996
From: David Crossley
Is anyone out there familiar with a science fiction novel written long ago concerning the discovery of a new species of primates with very human- like characteristics. One of the creatures is killed and a murder trial ensues in which the prosecution is compelled to define 'human being' with scientific precision in order to win the case. It's a very interesting book. I read it years ago and need to find in again in connection with a paper I'm writing on the 16th century debate among Spaniards over the humanity of the Indians of the New World. I have forgotten both the author and title. Can someone help me out? Thanks very much, Bruce Macbain (U. of Massachusetts at Boston).
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996
From: David Crossley
The book you are looking for is entitled, "You Shall Know Them". The author's nom de plume is Vercours.
Hope this helps, David Crossley, University of Saskatchewan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996
From: Dennis Des Chene
Not primates, but reptiles; still it may be a propos, especially since the main character is a Catholic priest and the story turns on whether the aliens have a sense of sin. I had only a vague memory of the version in a Faber collection from the fifties; I found the complete reference at
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana/SFAuthors/
which looks to be a reasonably comprehensive bibliography of SF.
A Case of Conscience (c) 1958, Ballantine ISBN:345-24480-X-150 The beginning of this novel first appeared in abridged form under the same title in IF Worlds of Science Fiction from which it is copyright 1953 by Quinn Publishing Co., Inc Father Ruiz-Sanchez was a dedicated man - a priest who was also a scientist, and a scientist who was also a human being. He found no insoluble conflicts in his beliefs or in his ethics until he was sent to Lithia. There he came upon a race of aliens - reptilian in form - who were admirable in every way except for their total reliance on cold reason, the were incapable of faith or belief.
Dennis Des Chene
Philosophy, Johns Hopkins, Baltimore MD 21218
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996
From: David Crossley
Further on the missing sci-fi novel. The author's real name is (was) Jean Buller and the original french version was entitled, "Les Animaux Denatures". The English version was titled, "You Shall Know Them" and the nom de plume used was "Vercors"
Cheers, David Crossley, Philosophy, U. of S. , Canada.
Note from David Bailey, editor: Toliver Henderson, also from the University of Sask., provided the same response. I am fascinated by the outpouring of comment on Sci-fi on this of all lists. Any comment on the relationship of Science Fiction to the history of ideas? Or fantasy, for that matter?
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 From: John Fox
One such novel, although not of ancient vintage is Orson Scott Card's book Speaker for the Dead. Its sequel carries on the story and expands the issue.
John Fox, University of New Hampshire.
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996
From: Patrick M. O'Neil
There was another story which used primates in, I believe, New Guinea, to raise the question of human personhood. There is a killing, and then a trial. I think the film was produced in the 1970s.
Patrick M. O'Neil
Broome Community College
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996
From:Nathan Freburg
>One such novel, although not of ancient vintage is Orson Scott Card's
>book Speaker for the Dead. Its sequel carries on the story and expands
>the issue.
>John Fox, University of New Hampshire.
Right. Xenocide (the sequel) discussed this issue at great length. Card's recent series--The Call of Earth etc.--deals with the role of faith and belief in a sort of Abrahamic allegory.
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996
From: Nathan Freeburg
>I am fascinated by the
>outpouring of comment on Sci-fi on this of all lists. Any comment on the
>relationship of Science Fiction to the history of ideas? Or fantasy, for
>that matter?
Two thoughts. One is that science fiction and fantasy are a safer way to explore the relationship of ideas to human action then is possible in the "real world." Second, how many ideas have been proposed through speculative means? Utopia, the Republic etc...
Nathan Freeburg
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996
From: Matthew Price
Hi,
H. Beam Piper wrote a series of novels about the "Fuzzies" or "Little Fuzzies", if I recall correctly; in the first novel, there is precisely such a debate about the status of the FUzzies, etc. If I recall correctly, the final resolution in favor of the fuzzies hasto do with identifying a spoken language.
Matt Price
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996
From: Bill Everdell
Nathan Freeburg quotes our editor, David Bailey: "I am fascinated by the outpouring of comment on Sci-fi on this of all lists. Any comment on the relationship of Science Fiction to the history of ideas? Or fantasy, for that matter?"
And adds: "how many ideas have been proposed through speculative means? Utopia, the Republic etc..."
I write not to answer the question, but to offer an ever-expanding list that can even serve as a syllabus. For years I have taught an introduction to the history of ideas under the titles "Speculative Literature" and "Literature of Ideas" using the richest of these texts in chronological order and ending with what we call science fiction. Among others, *R.U.R.* by Capek raises the question of what it is to be human just as fascism goes on the rise. Teachers should know that many of the shorter stories being referred to were printed together in Leon Stover & Harry Harrison's anthology (now o.o.p., alas) called *Apeman, Spaceman*, and billed by its publishers, Doubleday (1968) and Berkley (pb, 1970), as "Anthropological Science Fiction."
-Bill Everdell, Brooklyn
"Every great idea begins as a joke." -G.B. Shaw
Date: Tue, 21 May 96
From: Erik Tsao
We probably shoudn't forget Samuel Delany's fantasy cycle on "Neveryon", which uses post-structuralist philosophy and literary theory to radically re-fashion the whole genre of fantasy. The other person to read is Mervyn Peake, whose Go rmenghast Trilogy works as a sort of allegory for World War II. Also Guy Gavri el Kay's historical romances, which are loosely based on actual historical cult ures like Renaissance Italy and France, and Medieval Spain. The best of these is _Tigana_ which seems to be an allegory for the Jewish Holocaust,in Europe, a nd colonialism/imperialism, all over the world.
Erik Tsao
Wayne State University
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996
From: Rosemary Grant
This discussion reminds me a little of Walker Percy's _Lost in the Cosmos_ which I read several years ago. I know his work is considered nonfiction, but if I remember correctly it smacks of fiction.
Many such works have more than one level of meaning, and I think that's why sci-fi can be so fascinating. I didn't know all the different levels of meaning of Percy, but perhaps some others on this list can share this. That is, if you think Percy's work is deserving and fits into this discussion.
Respectfully,
Rosemary Bradford Grant
Monett High School History/Humanities Instructor, Ed.D. UMKC adjunct professor fhr010@mail.connect.more.net Monett, MO 65708 1-417-235-5445 & fax 1-417-235-7884
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996
From: Max Reichard
Walker Percy is one of the great novelists of the 20th century. Lost in the Cosmos is a book of essays, exploring his interest in science and language as a means of confronting human existence. Not exactly sci-fi.
This is in response to Rosemary Grant's comment:
>This discussion reminds me a little of Walker Percy's _Lost in the >Cosmos_ which I read several years ago. I know his work is considered >nonfiction, but if I remember correctly it smacks of fiction. >Many such works have more than one level of meaning, and I think >that's why sci-fi can be so fascinating. I didn't know all the different >levels of meaning of Percy, but perhaps some others on this list can share >this. That is, if you think Percy's work is deserving and fits into this >discussion.
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996
From: Christopher Wade Skinner
Actually, the book that Bruce is referring to is most probably Little Fuzzy, by the late and very peculiar H. Beam Piper. It was followed by Fuzzy Sapiens and a non-Piper sequal called Goldeneyes--I think.
Date: Fri, 17 May 96
From: Jason Curtis
Recently, for another reason, I finished rereading Well's _The Time Machine_. Up until now, perhaps naively, I had never realized that this story was one of social commentary and that time travel played a useful aspect to move the story along without seeming overly contrived (as compared to Bellamy's _Looking Backward_). And I have to agree with the below post, science fiction and fantasy play an important role in drawing ideas out to their possible conclusions. For instance, _We_ by Yevgeny Zamyatin, _Anthem_ by Ayn Rand and _1984_ play counterpoint to the above novels; dystopia/utopia (although _The Time Machine_ draws things so far out it is hard to make any conclusions except for the envisioned inevitable downfall of the human race). Science fiction, like any other art, can be used to trace the history of ideas. Even more so because, to a large extent, whole novels will be based upon one central, easily identifiable idea taken to the extreme or applied to a alien culture for objective examination (or ridicule). Of course, some novels are written for pure unadulterated escapist pleasure, as they should be.
Jason Curtis
This is in reply to the comment by David Bailey, Editor, H-Ideas:
> I am fascinated by the >outpouring of comment on Sci-fi on this of all lists. Any comment on the >relationship of Science Fiction to the history of ideas? Or fantasy, for >that matter?